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Turn signal blink rate rises with engine RPM's 3 months 2 weeks ago #32243

  • dcarver220b
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Awesome! 

Had similar situation  with my 265k mile FJR 1300... Low charging. Checked EVERYTHING. 

Hours later, decided the connector the to RR was a bit 'loose'..

New connector, problem solved.

Sometimes, you just have to keep on keeping on...

D

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Turn signal blink rate rises with engine RPM's 3 months 2 weeks ago #32244

  • Ted
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I assume that some increase in the blink rate is normal being this is a generator as opposed to an alternator or alternator, the differences of which my father taught me.
1981 KZ1300, '98 Suzuki GSF1200S, '80 Honda CT110, '11 Honda CBR250, '75 Honda CL360, '00 Honda XR100R
Speak softly and mount a fast bike.

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Turn signal blink rate rises with engine RPM's 3 months 2 weeks ago #32245

  • Kawboy
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I assume that some increase in the blink rate is normal being this is a generator as opposed to an alternator or alternator, the differences of which my father taught me.
Sorry, I can't agree.
First, regardless of either a generator or an alternator, because the system relies on a battery, the system voltage has to be DC.
A generator produces an AC output that has to have an external rectifier to convert the AC output to DC.
An alternator is a generator with an internal rectifier so the output of the alternator has already been converted to DC output.


Unfortunately, Kawasaki calls the "Black Box" a Voltage Regulator when in fact it is a rectifier / regulator. Inside the "regulator" are 3 silicone diodes, one for each phase  that allow the positive half of the AC wave to travel to the positive cable and 3 silicone diodes that allow the negative half of the AC wave to travel to ground. The difference in voltage between the positive output cable and ground is monitored and regulated to a set output voltage. In the case of the regulators supplied in our bikes, the regulator is a shunt type regulator. Any excess voltage above the set point is shunted to ground which in effect is "shorted" to  ground. So the stock regulator causes the generator to be putting out full output 100% of the time.
A more recent update to the charging circuit is to install a series type rectifier / regulator. In this update, there are still 6 silicone diodes to rectify the generator output from AC to DC voltage. The regulator portion instead of shorting excess voltage to ground, instead opens the circuit of the positive side and closes the output side and regulates the output by "turning off / on the circuit. This in effect reduces the load on the generator when the system voltage requirements are low/ It's estimated that for most motorcycles this could reduce the load on the generator by between 20 - 30 %.

The battery in the circuit acts like an accumulator in the system and buffers the output of the charging circuit and helps to control the system voltage and gives a more softer feedback to the regulator of the system voltage thus allowing the regulator a better chance to control the voltage at set point.

You mentioned that one side flashes faster than the other. the side that flashes faster has a higher resistance in that circuit than the one that flashes slower. Resistance can be due to corroded connectors or corroded switch contacts, or even a difference in light bulbs installed. I've come across the light bulb problem a few times. Guy comes into the shop and says he just replaced a turn signal bulb and now the turn signal either flashes faster or slower than the other side. a 10 watt bulb put in place of a 20 watt bulb will completely screw up the flasher.

You also mention that the flasher changes speed depending upon the motor rpm. This tells me that the system voltage is different at different rpms and the battery is suppose to buffer that issue. When the system current requirements are high, the battery is supposed to make up the difference between the charging voltage and the demand until such times as when the demand is less than the charging output amperage, then the charging circuit is supposed to "fill up " the battery.

Bottom line- you're not done with this issue. Lots of things to check

I hope some of this info helps.

KB
 
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Last edit: by Kawboy.

Turn signal blink rate rises with engine RPM's 3 months 2 weeks ago #32246

  • scotch
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Regarding the mentioned "RM Stators' Red CNC Regulator"  I'm reposting this correspondence with R.M. Stator:

The history: I ordered R.M. Stator's RED C.N.C. regulator on May22/21 ($187.94 cdn.)  1 month later I became concerned about the output which had changed from an acceptable 14.7V to 15.7V.  Shortly thereafter the voltage was all over from 12V to 16V.  I contacted R.M and they requested some info regarding the alternators continuity and A.C. output. No "opens", No "Shorts" and a healthy 70VAC @ 4000RPM.Multiple tests for load and resistance on each of my fused circuits eliminated any doubts about wiring problems. They authorized a return c/w a prepaid shipping label and sent a replacement.Less than 2 months later - The same issue!I again contacted them, assuring them that there was nothing wrong with my wiring.  An obvious and logical question!Again, they authorized a replacement (#3)   I contacted R.M and advised them that because #3 arrived late in the season (2022 only 2 weeks remaining on insurance) I would not open the package until the beginning of the riding season 2023.  They acknowledged this!In early April '23, I installed #3.   An hour later I wrote the followings to R.M.:  Re: Invoice# 101002675/transaction# 3PL00671SBO131541 I am writing to inform you that the 3rd regulator is defective; right out of the box!   It charges at 15.1 volts, contrary to your own specs as found on your site diagnostics info. I have once again installed my Shindengen 847 - 14.7volts max.   I am respectfully requesting a refund as I have no confidence in this regulator.
Their response: 
Thank you for contacting us!
As mentioned in our Return and Warranty policies on our website, refunds are only available within the first 90 days of purchase for new and unused parts.
Unfortunately, we will not be able to assist with your request due to the elapsed time frame.
We appreciate your understanding and hope to do business with you in the future! 

My response to this:
"
Are you freakin’ kidding?  3 defective units in about one year – not one lasting more than 2 months and you are not going to give me a refund for a device that clearly has a component/design flaw!   I’ll remind you that the Shendengen 847 is AGAIN back in my bike and continues to operate without issue or concern for almost 3 years.  It was my back-up while I dealt with your regulators, but is now my permanent regulator.
From your Web-site:
."We always make it right if your expectations are not met.  ?.     At our core, we strongly believe in The RMSTATOR Way.  ?.     This philosophy makes us elevate our work to provide a frictionless experience to our customers and the most comprehensive customer service support in the industry?. 
Might I remind you that the 3rd reg. you sent me was received late last summer, within weeks of the bikes insurance expiring.  I contacted you and advised that I would not open the package until the start of the ’23 season…… and you acknowledged this!So now, at the start of this 2023 season this third regulator is overcharging; right out the box and you are hanging me out to dry on a “Warranty”/90 Day return policy “technicality”?   I’ll kindly ask that you reconsider, given this specific case and refund my original purchase price.  I am a “Sustaining” member of the KZ1300USA forum and a frequent contributor (“scotch”) as well as other forums.  To date, I have not said a word about this issue with this regulator, on any Forum. That could change! 
Pissed-off and disgusted!"

 I received a full refund!

In my humble opinion - which I expressed - "This unit has a serious design/component issue". (Most likely a Factory “Substituted/Alternative" component.)  Regardless - "3 consecutive failures".

If you are considering an upgrade - Buy the Shendengen 847 !   The Shendengen 847 operates all day - literally - at 14.5V !   Over 13V at idle !

 
You can come to your own conclusion(s)

 
 
1980 KZ 1300 sr# KZT30A-009997
Always High - Know Fear !
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Last edit: by scotch.

Turn signal blink rate rises with engine RPM's 3 months 2 weeks ago #32247

  • Ted
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It is helpful in that I have more to check.  Most of what you said is over my head and maybe I got some bad advice from my father who was no electrical engineer.  He stated that an alternator charges at a consistent rate but a generator charges more as the rpm's increase.

Since I cleaned the connector, the right side no longer flashes at a faster rate than the left; both are the same.  At idle, the blink rate is slower, probably the same as turning them on w/o the engine running.  The rate rises with engine speed and levels off at some point, but as I said, I didn't note the rpms.  I don't have a baseline, but over that point they flash at a greater rate than any other motor vehicle I have driven, about half way between my other vehicles and the rate that tells you that you have blown a bulb.

I think for starters, I will continue to check and clean connections and review the service manual again and try to understand how to check the system.

If the regulator is bad, what's the worse case scenario for affect on the system?
1981 KZ1300, '98 Suzuki GSF1200S, '80 Honda CT110, '11 Honda CBR250, '75 Honda CL360, '00 Honda XR100R
Speak softly and mount a fast bike.

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Turn signal blink rate rises with engine RPM's 3 months 2 weeks ago #32248

  • Kawboy
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I'll agree with Scotch here. the Shindengen 847 is an awesome regulator and there's been no reports of failure unlike  the RM Stator 50amp series regulator. One caution though. there are several counterfeit versions of the SH847 out there, especially on EBay.  Roadster Cycle  is a trusted source for the SH847 and as far as I know, is the only official importer for the SH847 for North America.

Regulator failure modes
Diodes can fail open or closed. Failed open and that phase attached to the diode will not add to the charge of that phase. The charging output if measured will be lower by one third for each open phase. (approximately) Failed closed and the phase is shorted causing a drain on the charging circuit which will result in a dead battery.
Regulator transistors can also fail open or closed. Failed open and there's no output from the generator charging the system. Failed closed and again, a short in the circuit causing the battery to go dead.

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