TOPIC:

Back at ya,

APE Manual CCT : Can't comment one way or the other as I have no experience with this or the Z-11 type. I modified the OEM many years ago and have had no apparent issues. The only concern with modifying the original is the lack of material at the end gives minimal thread count when tapped. I took an appropriate nut, rounded it down to fit in the end (from the inside) and used this to supplement the female threads in the body, itself. I had a concern that the thin material in the housing could strip out and subsequently create the issue I was trying to avoid.
Rotella T6. Seems there's quite a few who use this successfully. I have not, to date, but am seriously considering it for my next oil change.
<..... I do believe the adage of frequent changes using quality oil is the best measure, and I have always adhered to that in the past.....> Absolutely !
Also, if you don't know yet: The '79's and 80's have a "shallow" oil pan. Apparently if the oil level is LOW to begin with, you can end up with oil starvation and as I understand it; "Lack of Oil" issues. Serious issues ! Another aspect to your maintenance regime is to ALWAYS keep the oil level UP..
<...... I think some of the best medicine would be putting some miles on the clock and running good fuel through it. ....> Couldn't agree more !

scotch

scotch wrote: Back at ya,

APE Manual CCT : Can't comment one way or the other as I have no experience with this or the Z-11 type. I modified the OEM many years ago and have had no apparent issues. The only concern with modifying the original is the lack of material at the end gives minimal thread count when tapped. I took an appropriate nut, rounded it down to fit in the end (from the inside) and used this to supplement the female threads in the body, itself. I had a concern that the thin material in the housing could strip out and subsequently create the issue I was trying to avoid.
Rotella T6. Seems there's quite a few who use this successfully. I have not, to date, but am seriously considering it for my next oil change.
<..... I do believe the adage of frequent changes using quality oil is the best measure, and I have always adhered to that in the past.....> Absolutely !
Also, if you don't know yet: The '79's and 80's have a "shallow" oil pan. Apparently if the oil level is LOW to begin with, you can end up with oil starvation and as I understand it; "Lack of Oil" issues. Serious issues ! Another aspect to your maintenance regime is to ALWAYS keep the oil level UP..
<...... I think some of the best medicine would be putting some miles on the clock and running good fuel through it. ....> Couldn't agree more !

scotch

Yes, I noticed after picking it up yesterday and getting it home after a ride, that the oil was indeed low. I added some 10w-40 cycle oil I had in the garage to get by, but will be running by a dealer to pick up some SAE 10w-40 and a filter to do a change pretty quick. I will also drain the final drive and replace that while I'm there.

I assume the APE will be a good choice, the trick is always getting the tension correct. In the past I have done this with the bike running (after it's been snugged by hand, then backed a quarter turn. Start the bike, back out until rattling occurs, then turn in another quarter to half - something to that effect. I'm still doing some more looking around this topic with the kz.

OK Srech77. First I'm going to warn you, you're about to get an earful about this method of adjusting the cam chain as you've suggested. My first reaction is to suggest you had a look at a Youtube video and it made sense so you adopted the practice. Lord only knows that "Everything you find on the Internet is the truth" Couldn't be more wrong. Any dink can post a Youtube video if they have a Google account. Most people post these videos to make money. The more times a video get looked at, the more money the poster makes after a certain point or number of initial views. If it goes viral, sit back and collect the cheques. The only information I believe to be creditable is that which comes from the manufacturer or from an engineered study, othwise take whatever info comes your way with a grain of salt and that includes my opinion and anyone else's. The best part of Forums like these is to bounce ideas around and try to make sense out of what we know and what has worked for us. We're not engineers. Just a buch of great guys with a wealth of experience just trying to help each other out.

Many of our members do not agree with adjusting on the fly. And to compound the issue, there's no information that I'm aware of from APE suggesting a method for using their manual adjuster. We therefore have to "go with what we know"

This topic came up a couple of weeks ago and one of our new members which has been "in the business" since God wore pants says he rolls the engine up to top dead center on number 1-6 and then adjusts out the play. I would agree that this is a safe play only if the the crank is not rotated backwards. It should be fine and for the most part I would agree.

I on the other hand I adjust mine on the fly at idle. I would never backout the adjuster until I heard chain slop noise. That noise indicates the chain slapping on the chain guides and that slack could be enough to allow the chain to skip a tooth on one or both cams and then you're in trouble. Let's face it, the chain will never tighten up so why would you need to back off the adjuster? On the other hand, if you over tighten the chain you're applying more pressure on the nylon gear and that's not good either.
So why do I feel that adjusting on the fly is a better approach than adjusting on a cold engine stopped at top dead center? As the cam lobes roll over the cam followers, the cams will need rotation force to drive the lobe up on the follower then when the cam has ramped over the lobe, the valve spring will push the cam causing the cam to self rotate. This causes a push/pull between the cams and the cam chain and if you've ever rolled the engine over slowly with the cam cover off and watched the chain in between the 2 cams, you might see the chain tighten up and then loosen up. This visually demonstrates the effect I'm trying to describe. so as I said adjusting a stopped engine may be the correct way PROVIDED that the cams are neutral and not pulling on or pushing the cam chain and the slack can be maintained at the rear so that the slop is over the tensioner. I can't say for sure that "top dead center on 1/6" is the correct spot. I've never checked this out since I've always done my manual adjustment at idle on a hot engine.
The other consideration is that no chain has uniform stretch throughout the chain. There will always be tight spots and loose spots. Knowing that the chain is constantly rotating through the cam drive gears ie. never engaging the gears at the same points on the chain consistantly, then if you adjusted with the engine stopped was the stretch in the chain at the tensioner or was it between the camshafts, or was it on the drive side of the camshafts when you adjusted the tensioner? The only way to confirm your adjustment would be to adjust the chain and then rotate the crankshaft through 2 rotations and check the tension again. Maybe repeat that a few more times and ensure yourself that your adjustment is what you want.
Last point- Most believe that this adjustment should be done on a cold engine. I've never adjusted on a cold engine and then checked the tension after it's heated up so I can't say one way or the other if the tension changed and if it's acceptable when hot. It's my belief that the tension needs to be as correct as possible at running temperature. There is a rubber follower wheel in the adjuster and then there's the rubber blocks anchoring the tensioner and I'll suggest that they are there to account for the difference in tension when the engine is cold and when running.

So for me, after putting up all of this logic, I'll now state what I've always done. It takes a sense of "feel" I've always got the engine warmed up not hot just up to temp. Let it sit there on idle and back off the tensioner lock nut. Don't allow the tensioner bolt to wind out. Using your fingers, rotate the tensioner bolt clockwise and feel the vibrations on the bolt. On a loose chain the vibrations will be strong. On a tighter chain the vibrations will be minimal. As you rotate the bolt you'll come to a point where it will take more force to tighten it more. I believe that is the point where the slack is out of the chain and any more tightening will only apply force on the chain and cause premature wear of the nylon gear and drive teeth on the geartrain and premature wear of the chain. So at that point I back off the tensioner bolt half of one flat of the bolt head ie, 1/12th of a turn and then lock it up with the locknut. It's my belief that the purpose of the tensioning system is to maintain minimal slack in the chain and not "tension" the chain. We don't want too much slack because too much slack will allow the chain to run loose in that nylon gear and that can cause premature wear of the gear. Too tight and premature wear.

Now I'm sure there are more "ideas out there" and I would love to hear them. And feel free to give me an earful too. I'm here to learn as much as to teach. I've put up my justifications and what's worked for me. Feel free to cross examine.

Kawboy wrote: OK Srech77. First I'm going to warn you, you're about to get an earful about this method of adjusting the cam chain as you've suggested. My first reaction is to suggest you had a look at a Youtube video and it made sense so you adopted the practice. Lord only knows that "Everything you find on the Internet is the truth" Couldn't be more wrong. Any dink can post a Youtube video if they have a Google account. Most people post these videos to make money. The more times a video get looked at, the more money the poster makes after a certain point or number of initial views. If it goes viral, sit back and collect the cheques. The only information I believe to be creditable is that which comes from the manufacturer or from an engineered study, othwise take whatever info comes your way with a grain of salt and that includes my opinion and anyone else's. The best part of Forums like these is to bounce ideas around and try to make sense out of what we know and what has worked for us. We're not engineers. Just a buch of great guys with a wealth of experience just trying to help each other out.

Many of our members do not agree with adjusting on the fly. And to compound the issue, there's no information that I'm aware of from APE suggesting a method for using their manual adjuster. We therefore have to "go with what we know"

This topic came up a couple of weeks ago and one of our new members which has been "in the business" since God wore pants says he rolls the engine up to top dead center on number 1-6 and then adjusts out the play. I would agree that this is a safe play only if the the crank is not rotated backwards. It should be fine and for the most part I would agree.

I on the other hand I adjust mine on the fly at idle. I would never backout the adjuster until I heard chain slop noise. That noise indicates the chain slapping on the chain guides and that slack could be enough to allow the chain to skip a tooth on one or both cams and then you're in trouble. Let's face it, the chain will never tighten up so why would you need to back off the adjuster? On the other hand, if you over tighten the chain you're applying more pressure on the nylon gear and that's not good either.
So why do I feel that adjusting on the fly is a better approach than adjusting on a cold engine stopped at top dead center? As the cam lobes roll over the cam followers, the cams will need rotation force to drive the lobe up on the follower then when the cam has ramped over the lobe, the valve spring will push the cam causing the cam to self rotate. This causes a push/pull between the cams and the cam chain and if you've ever rolled the engine over slowly with the cam cover off and watched the chain in between the 2 cams, you might see the chain tighten up and then loosen up. This visually demonstrates the effect I'm trying to describe. so as I said adjusting a stopped engine may be the correct way PROVIDED that the cams are neutral and not pulling on or pushing the cam chain and the slack can be maintained at the rear so that the slop is over the tensioner. I can't say for sure that "top dead center on 1/6" is the correct spot. I've never checked this out since I've always done my manual adjustment at idle on a hot engine.
The other consideration is that no chain has uniform stretch throughout the chain. There will always be tight spots and loose spots. Knowing that the chain is constantly rotating through the cam drive gears ie. never engaging the gears at the same points on the chain consistantly, then if you adjusted with the engine stopped was the stretch in the chain at the tensioner or was it between the camshafts, or was it on the drive side of the camshafts when you adjusted the tensioner? The only way to confirm your adjustment would be to adjust the chain and then rotate the crankshaft through 2 rotations and check the tension again. Maybe repeat that a few more times and ensure yourself that your adjustment is what you want.
Last point- Most believe that this adjustment should be done on a cold engine. I've never adjusted on a cold engine and then checked the tension after it's heated up so I can't say one way or the other if the tension changed and if it's acceptable when hot. It's my belief that the tension needs to be as correct as possible at running temperature. There is a rubber follower wheel in the adjuster and then there's the rubber blocks anchoring the tensioner and I'll suggest that they are there to account for the difference in tension when the engine is cold and when running.

So for me, after putting up all of this logic, I'll now state what I've always done. It takes a sense of "feel" I've always got the engine warmed up not hot just up to temp. Let it sit there on idle and back off the tensioner lock nut. Don't allow the tensioner bolt to wind out. Using your fingers, rotate the tensioner bolt clockwise and feel the vibrations on the bolt. On a loose chain the vibrations will be strong. On a tighter chain the vibrations will be minimal. As you rotate the bolt you'll come to a point where it will take more force to tighten it more. I believe that is the point where the slack is out of the chain and any more tightening will only apply force on the chain and cause premature wear of the nylon gear and drive teeth on the geartrain and premature wear of the chain. So at that point I back off the tensioner bolt half of one flat of the bolt head ie, 1/12th of a turn and then lock it up with the locknut. It's my belief that the purpose of the tensioning system is to maintain minimal slack in the chain and not "tension" the chain. We don't want too much slack because too much slack will allow the chain to run loose in that nylon gear and that can cause premature wear of the gear. Too tight and premature wear.

Now I'm sure there are more "ideas out there" and I would love to hear them. And feel free to give me an earful too. I'm here to learn as much as to teach. I've put up my justifications and what's worked for me. Feel free to cross examine.

The only thing I have to say is that I appreciate the advice! I'm not an expert - so it helps me for sure ...

Do I need to have the cam cover off to put the new tensioner on? Or do I take the old one out after the bike is warm, then put the new one in and use the method you stated?

Scotch
You mention that your chosen method of dealing with the cam chain tensioner problem was to fit a set screw into the end of the tensioner housing. As you say, there is not much thickness of metal there. In my case, I intend doing what Lare did to his - fit a longer set screw with locking. nut in place of the existing hex head side mounted push rod retaining screw. This prevents any chance of the push rod making unwanted movements, whilst retaining the correct tensioner spring. It be comes - in effect - a manual tensioner, but without the possibility of over or under tightening the chain. Of course, you know all this, but it might be another option for our new owner to consider.

srech77, sorry for late response but you have found yourself a lovely example . Couple up for sale here in the UK at the moment that are no better than your lovely KZ13, (and probably not as nice in the flesh) with an asking prices of $14,000 and $13,000 USD - you have the bargain of the century methinks.

I have had a 79 A1 for a few years, always filled her with top quality motorcycle oil 10 / 40 and (as Scotch said) kept a close eye on oil levels as I decided not to do the "deep sump" mod. I did do the Zx11 CCT change with no drama and bought a replacement genuine OEM cam idler gear (from a forum member): thought about a Liska unit but I do not do big miles on mine thought the original nylon gear should last me another 10 years +.

Only other thing I would mention is that I have had issues (and so have some other owners) with Start button contact in the RH control, and repeated issues with my starter clutch - hopefully now sorted
.
Enjoy riding and owning your 13 - I know I would.
Cheers Tim .