Cam Chain and Tensioner

So the manual says to measure 20 links (21 rivets), service limit 128.9mm, mine only 127mm so cam chain good. Phew!

The ZX11 tensioner already fitted, I dont have the standard one. It goes in 11 clicks! Can anyone tell me the length of the spring, it doesnt look like its been cut, so I might need to cut 10mm off it to reduce the tension. Is that still the best policy? I dont have the standard tensioner to modify, so not going back.

It all needs painting and I hate painted over gaskets, so a strip down to clean and paint is in order. I've also ordered a leak down tester so I'm going to do that before stripping. Having decided to strip it anyway, I have ordered the metal idler gear from Liska so that's going in too.

Have to agree - the top-end looks great. The nylon cam-chain gear looks fine to me. My '80 looks the same and has 78,000K on it. Check out the Tensioner modification if yours hasn't been done. DO NOT over tighten this adjustment regardless of which mod. you have or choose. Over tightening is the fastest way of prematuraly ruining this nylon part and replacement requires the cylinders to come off. I doubt the cam or drive chains have any issues given the low mileage. Drop the oil-pan and service the sump screen. You won't know if the valve-stem seals are still viable until you start running/riding it. I found a way to change the seals with the head on, but we can get into that later. You've likely checked the valve gaps so you know the engine turns over freely.
If it starts, idles and responds to throttle; leave the carbs, for now. If it won't start or does but won't idle - get back to the forum and the typical issues can be discussed in detail at that time.
Best thing to do is start reading the manual and dig into the forum topics. The volumes of info avaibable will address almost everything you could need to know. Be paitent, don't get over-whelmed, try to figure things out for yourself. If you can't, then ask.
1300's are very easy to work on but like everything else - there are tricks and solutions that can only be learned from those who know and most on this forum are happy to share.

It looks fabulous, Pete. Which route did you take with the cam chain tensioner this time ?
Is there a chance you might post a video of the engine starting / running please?

A recent update on my A1 – It turned 40 years old last year so I decided to buy it some birthday presents – I have had long term stator/charging problems so took the advice from this forum and purchased a Shindengen SH775 series regulator. I fitted this in June last year and posted a short item on how I fitted it (see www.kz1300.com/index.php/forum/bike-proj...goal?start=312#25242 – page 53). It’s a tight fit if you want to retain the waterproof connectors but just fits in the original regulator location with some minor modifications to the bracket. My A1 has now covered over 32,000 miles so again following advice on this forum, decided that it was time to replace the cam idler gear and lower rubber guide wheel.



With most of us on lockdown, I finally found the time to not only fit the new parts but also to carry out some renovation work and to repaint the engine as it was showings its age. I also took the opportunity to remove the sump, clean the oil strainer and renovate the outside of the sump. The crosshead screws holding the oil pickup were very tight but using a wedge underneath my JIS driver seemed to work well. My biggest headache was cleaning off the old gasket from underneath the engine which is very time consuming and messy (but essential) to avoid any future leaks.



I have carried out a top end strip (removing the cylinder head) a number of times already so this was fairly straightforward. I would always recommend the use of the original fit head gasket to avoid the chance of any coolant leaks but it is considerably more expensive than a pattern part.
Comparing my old plastic gear with the new Liska unit, it is clear that my plastic gear is close to its wear limit. I also suspect that the wear on this gear is not proportional with mileage and once it starts to wear, losing the exact gear pitch with the cam chain, it will wear far more rapidly. I was always uncomfortable with a plastic gear in this location as it is load bearing and whilst it is a low noise solution and less expensive to make, I am much more comfortable with a more robust solution. For reference, I fitted the ZX-11 tensioner at around 24,000 miles and also shortened the spring by 10mm as recommended but I am sure this puts more stress on the gear. My gear is less worn that many posted on this forum but I still think it was time for replacement.





The lower rubber guide wheel was in better condition than I expected but showed some witness marks from the cam chain. I bought the new wheel from MCG in Germany (always good service and quality parts). Fitting was straightforward but ensuring that the idler shaft rubbers are fitted (and glued) correctly and don’t drop down inside the cam chain tunnel (even when this is covered as well as possible) can be nerve wracking.

Hello Admin KZQ. Thanks for info to properly post. It has been years since I posted anything. Not even sure if this thread post belongs in this category forum. Anyway, here is another try at posting pics of my project to rebirth my sixer. Started tearing down engine today. Found a bad alternator to start. Any help and or ideas would be helpful. To do things i know on my list is to replace timing chain tensioner, thermostat, rebuild carburetors, rectifyers, etc. Got some more pics. This is attempt to post some. Hope it works.

I modified my stock tensioner with an internal nut, retained the internal original spring and locking collar. I rely on the spring to pre-load while giving the crank a bit of C.W. rotation. Then tighten the outside lock-nut. I do not "add" any tension. Still have 'teeth" on my nylon sprocket. 80,000+K

I wanted to update with what I ended up doing today.

While I had the carbs off, I swapped in the manual adjuster. I would like to say first that I quickly found out that moving the o-ring seal back out of contact improved the "feel" by eliminating the majority of friction in the assembly. All you have to do (BEFORE you install the tensioner) is to turn in the bolt by hand with the lock-nut backed off. This will slide the o-ring clear of the body of the tensioner. Once it's clear, you can gently slide it farther out of the way. Try to avoid cutting the o-ring on the bolt threads. A shot of WD-40 will help.

Once I could feel what I was doing, I turned in the bolt using fingers only. It felt just like you would expect for a system using a silicone/rubber tension roller. That is, no clear "tight point," but just a smooth increase in the effort required to turn in the tensioner bolt. I settled for turning in the bolt until I felt first contact, then just a bit more, perhaps 1/4 turn. I then tightened the locknut. I figure this will give a slight preload on the tension roller, without crushing it so much that it wears out prematurely. I'll recheck the tension after I run the engine in a bit.

Speaking of wear on the tension wheel, does anybody have a gut feel for how many mile/years the roller would be expected to last in the real world? I have no reason to believe the one I've got is not the original, which would put it at 5600 miles and thirty-eight years. I haven't looked in the Service Manual yet.

Richard

These things are actually very difficult to find the sweet spot. It's all so tight you can't feel the 'spot', never mind being able to turn the bolt by hand. I have a manual tensioner installed, but I just did the stock tensioner mod and I will be switching. Anything written about adjusting the manual tensioner never worked for me - I just can't feel that spot because finger-tight locking is impossible! In my case at least.

I removed he head cover and was checking the tension of the chain by hand. Then - by ear when engine running. Chose the least noise point. But overall - I'd do the mod and have the thing adjust itself with the spring.

Looking at the first picture it's apparent the cam chain is rusty. The 2nd and 3rd picture of the cam gears shows some nasty uneven wear on the cam sprockets. I'd guess the cam chain links are (partially) seized, which would account for the "rattle" because the cam chain is being "forced" throughout it's path.

Supplement: I'd advise to NOT run the engine until the cam chain has been replaced! Doing so could likely ruin the otherwise usable Plastic tensioner sprocket. Not to mention the rust debris that'll end up in your lubrication system

Hi Neil
Not sure of the email address you are using tonight.

I have had another good look inside, there is some wear on the cam chain sprocket and cams themselves but no more than most z1300.
The inside of the engine has a couple of vertical marks on a couple of the bores but are showing mainly the honing marks.
You did say that when you last cleaned the combustion chamber the noise was reduced, maybe we will have to have a go and see if this will help again.

To go on to the next stage we will have to lift the head off and investigate the combustion chamber, pistons, piston to pin movement, valve cutouts on piston crown, cam chain waer, cam guilds and cam guide wheel, upgraded cam tensioner.
The pics show the wear on the cam chain sprocekt and cam guide sprocket.
If you let us know what you wish us to do on this matter please.







Regards
Oz
Director
Zed-parts Ltd
Company Reg 08877151

Website www.zed-parts.com
email This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
pictures to follow. Its also had the zzr1100 camchain tensioner fitted.
Neil.

Sounds like it would need more things done to start her up and hear that rattle, after sitting for years as I understand.
There are rattles when you cold start the engine, and they go away when the engine warms up. Most noticeable would be related to the cam chain tensioner adjustment. If the bike would run, and it did run, then I wouldn't worry starting it up to investigate. If you start blindly taking it apart you might end up chasing a goose. I'd say it should be safe for quick troubleshooting - not riding! If it's been sitting for years, I imagine you need to look at carbs etc. before flipping the switch. In such case, I would remove the top cover and have a peak inside at the sprocket, chain. And check the valves and shims - if all are in place and within specs.

You sad rattle at the top section, right? But sometimes our sense can be misleading. That's why I suggested a stethoscope. Sometimes the primary chain hits the crank case if stretch too much. If so, that would require taking the whole engine apart. Best way to inspect this is to remove the oil pan and measure the slack.

Another could be bolts behind the starter clutch loose and hitting something. That can also be mistaken as top end noise.

Now, the semantics. Is it a rattle or ticking? If the running engine shakes like hell trying to spill its guts then shut it down! If it ticks, investigate.

Like I sad. I'd open the top and have a look inside.

Personally, I wouldn't fire it up until you've found and fixed the rattle. anything that makes a rattle is surely bound to be ready to explode. If the camshaft drive chain is loose enough to rattle, it's loose enough to jump a tooth and bend a valve.

I would stop right now and pull the valve cover and have a really good look at the cam chain, tensioner sprocket AND the black idler wheel below the tensioner sprocket.

The sprocket should have teeth on it. When things get really bad, the teeth disappear.
The idler wheel should be round and appear to be a rubber wheel- They been known to split and drop a segment leaving a flat spot.

AND if you're not sure, Posts some pics of what you can see.

Something's loose? Might be cam chain tensioner related. Tensioner too loose, the sprocket bearing shot, the sprocket worn with and chain loose, the rubber wheel of the tensioner guide's bearing shot, loose, too much clearance on some of the valves? Buy a mechanics stethoscope and try to find the source.
And best, post a video/sound clip.

Mnmike- You don't need to remove the sprocket to remove the cylinder block. Just remove the tensioner and slip the chain of the sprocket and drop it in the crankcase. You can retrieve it later.


The pin you're talking about is item #6 in the diagram. It's just a spring pin located in a blind hole on the back side of the sprocket. If you do take off the timing gear, make sure you put a wrench on the water pump shaft to hold the shaft while you remove the bolt holding on the timing gear. If you don't you may crack the nylon gear and they are hard to come by. I think the German site has someone manufacturing them if required.
Cheers,
KB

Welcome.
I hope you might be able to show some photos of your bike, and the rebuild as it progresses.
What is your story - what is the appeal of the 1300 for you?
Regarding the cam chain tensioner, this subject has been discussed many times on the forum. If you do a search, you’ll find lots of information and differing opinions on how to improve on the original tensioner. The three options seem to be : modify the original tensioner ; fit a ZX11 / ZZR1100 tensioner, after shortening the spring ( much debate on that! ). ; or fit a manual tensioner.
Not sure about the water pump gears. Maybe somebody will advise.

I'm going to rebuild a kz1300 which I bought 6 months ago. I've been sourcing parts ready to start.
my question is it worth replacing the water pump gears. and what with. Are there originals or copies still
to be purchased ? and what about the cam chain tensioner or course I've read about ..I think its a Z1100
thanks in advance

Mazzara wrote: Hi boy, I write from Italy so sorry if I'm not very clear.
I know your forum is not about my bike, but I don't know how else to find a solution.
I am restoring a cbx 750 '85 and somehow I came to know that in your forum there is a solution to my problem. The distribution tendon is very noisy due to a manufacturing defect.
The engineer who had studied this distribution had switched from Honda to Kawasaki, taking this error.
does anyone know how to help me? Thanks

Normally, I would suggest that you look for information to help you fix your problem on another site more familiar with the CBX750 but I can tell you are somewhat desperate if you are asking here but possibly we can help.

First- I'm struggling with the term "distribution tension" and I am wondering if you mean "camshaft chain tensioner". I think it is a problem in the translation from Italian to English and I do not speak Italian so I am having trouble trying to understand what you are describing. Maybe if you can better describe the "distribution tension" we may be able to help.

I also looked in the internet for "CBX750 noisy" and I found information about noisy "alternator drive chain" due to problems with the chain tensioner and maybe this information would help
teamrc17.net/articles/117/replacing-your...and-their-tensioners

If you need to have new link plate chains (Morse silent chains) made up, I had Ramsay Chain fabricate primary and secondary chains for me for our KZ1300's.

ramseychain.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjww7HsBRDkA...TwMAKcMaAukUEALw_wcB

I made exactly the same modification ( only no O-ring ). As mentioned the back of the tensioner is rather thin so like Ronlander I tapped for a 5mm bolt. But as an additional safety I changed the 6mm lock bolt which is used during installation for a longer one which reach the ( large) flat on the push rod when tightened so holding the push rod in position. Now from time to time I loosen this bolt and tighten again, and at the same time adjust the 5 mm bolt.

Phil wrote: Yes I'm concerned that, even with 10mm cut from the spring, that it bears too heavily on the cam chain.

Pasted from another thread on here on which I commented on about a year back:

"I personally have been swayed by new information regarding shortening the ZZR CCT spring & whether it increases tension force, this was posted by Ian on the international Z1300 Facebook page after he carried out tests:
"well WoW the standard cct spring is putting 650 grams of force on the chain at a length of 52 mm
the zzr spring is putting over 1030 grams of force at the same compression with 10mm cut off, that was taken at the end of its travel which is 52mm so if you cam chain isnt that slack then more force will be applied.
compressing the ZZR CCT by 10mm nearly doubled the force applied to 2000 grams.
the standard CCT only went up to 920 grams at 10mm compression.
Phil i would be interested in how much force you will get with a full length spring.
think ill stick with the standard CCT with modified with a back stop."

Lauri Nurminen quoted:
"I use the original tensioner, just change the M6 bolt for one 15mm longer. Every 2000 km or so I loosen the bolt, let the adjuster do its thing and then lock it with the longer bolt. The tensioner can not fail when locked in place. Costs only what longer bolt costs."

Interesting numbers and thanks for reposting them. I can honestly say that this is the first time I've seen the numbers and it confirms for me that the manual tensioner is the way to go for me. That said, it's not the way for all and an automatic system is more preferred or in the case of the modded stock tensioners, an automatic adjustment with a manual locking system is best.
Obviously, the spring used in the ZZR tensioner having almost double the force of the KZ tensioner spring is concerning. I like the ratcheting design of the ZZR tensioner over the locking ball system of the KZ and it would just take some "engineering" to come up with a more appropriate spring to simulate the same force as the KZ spring. Some of the recent posts regarding the tensioner rubber load wheel and nylon guide gear would support the concerns with the tensioner system (either stock or modded)
I also believe that the problems with the rubber load wheel on the tensioner should be better addressed. Rubber parts that operate in heated oil should be changed out on a periodic basis due to hardening of the rubber material.

Yes I'm concerned that, even with 10mm cut from the spring, that it bears too heavily on the cam chain.

Pasted from another thread on here on which I commented on about a year back:

"I personally have been swayed by new information regarding shortening the ZZR CCT spring & whether it increases tension force, this was posted by Ian on the international Z1300 Facebook page after he carried out tests:
"well WoW the standard cct spring is putting 650 grams of force on the chain at a length of 52 mm
the zzr spring is putting over 1030 grams of force at the same compression with 10mm cut off, that was taken at the end of its travel which is 52mm so if you cam chain isnt that slack then more force will be applied.
compressing the ZZR CCT by 10mm nearly doubled the force applied to 2000 grams.
the standard CCT only went up to 920 grams at 10mm compression.
Phil i would be interested in how much force you will get with a full length spring.
think ill stick with the standard CCT with modified with a back stop."

Lauri Nurminen quoted:
"I use the original tensioner, just change the M6 bolt for one 15mm longer. Every 2000 km or so I loosen the bolt, let the adjuster do its thing and then lock it with the longer bolt. The tensioner can not fail when locked in place. Costs only what longer bolt costs."